Is Orange Juice a Pure Substance?
What you think you know about your morning glass might be wrong.
Opening hook
Imagine a glass of freshly squeezed orange juice. But if you ever peek at a lab notebook, you’ll see a completely different picture. So ” is a big, resounding no. It feels like a single, pure thing—just orange. That’s why the answer to “Is orange juice a pure substance?The same glass is actually a mixture of dozens of compounds, all dancing together. Consider this: you see it, you smell it, you taste that bright, tangy sweetness. Yet, the question opens a fascinating window into chemistry, nutrition, and the way we think about everyday foods Practical, not theoretical..
What Is Orange Juice
Orange juice is the liquid extracted from the fruit Citrus sinensis. Still, when we talk about it in the kitchen, we’re usually thinking of the sweet, tart beverage you pour into a glass. In the lab, however, the term “orange juice” is shorthand for a complex cocktail of sugars, acids, vitamins, minerals, and countless trace molecules.
The Core Components
- Water – about 86 % of the volume. It’s the solvent that holds everything else together.
- Sugars – mainly glucose and fructose, giving that natural sweetness.
- Citric Acid – the star acid that gives oranges their tartness.
- Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) – a powerful antioxidant.
- Flavonoids – color pigments and health‑boosting antioxidants.
- Other acids – malic, tartaric, and a smidge of oxalic acid.
- Minerals – potassium, calcium, magnesium, and trace elements.
- Essential oils – tiny amounts of limonene and other aromatic compounds.
Why It’s Not a Pure Substance
In chemistry, a pure substance means a material that has a single, uniform composition throughout. Think of distilled water, pure glucose, or a single element like gold. Orange juice, by contrast, is a heterogeneous mixture: its components vary from one drop to another, especially when you stir or leave it sitting. So even if you filter it to remove pulp, the liquid still contains a broad spectrum of molecules. So, by the strictest definition, orange juice isn’t a pure substance.
Why It Matters / Why People Care
You might wonder why we bother with this distinction. It turns out that knowing orange juice is a mixture has practical implications for nutrition, food science, and even legal labeling.
Nutrition and Health
- Bioavailability – The way nutrients interact with each other can affect how much your body actually absorbs. As an example, vitamin C can enhance iron absorption, but too much citric acid might interfere with certain minerals.
- Allergies and Sensitivities – A mixture means there are more chances for someone to react to a specific component, like a particular protein or allergen.
Food Industry
- Quality Control – Manufacturers need to know the exact composition to maintain consistency across batches.
- Regulations – Labels must list all ingredients, and any additives (like preservatives) must be declared. A pure substance would never need such a list.
Science Education
- Teaching Tool – Orange juice is a relatable example to explain concepts like mixtures, solubility, and the difference between homogeneous and heterogeneous substances.
- Research – Studying how the components of orange juice react under different conditions (temperature, pH) can lead to better preservation methods or new flavor profiles.
How It Works (or How to Do It)
Let’s break down the journey from orange to glass, and see how each step contributes to the final mixture.
1. Harvesting and Selection
Farmers pick oranges at peak ripeness. Even within a single orchard, fruit size, sugar content, and acid levels can vary. The first variation you’ll encounter is already present in the raw fruit And that's really what it comes down to..
2. Washing and Cleaning
Water removes dirt and pesticide residues. This step introduces a small amount of water that can carry soluble contaminants into the juice.
3. Crushing and Pressing
Mechanical force breaks the cell walls, releasing juice. The pulp that’s left behind is rich in fibers and some of the more volatile aromatic compounds. If you use a juicer that separates pulp, you’ll get a clearer liquid but still a complex mixture Most people skip this — try not to..
4. Clarification and Filtration
Some commercial juices are clarified with enzymes or centrifugation to remove solids. This reduces the amount of particulate matter but can also remove certain flavor compounds bound to fiber Less friction, more output..
5. Pasteurization
Heat kills microbes but also changes some of the juice’s chemistry. Here's a good example: vitamin C can degrade, and some sugars might caramelize slightly, altering flavor.
6. Packaging
The final product is sealed in a container that can be a barrier to light and oxygen. Light can degrade vitamin C and cause off‑flavors, while oxygen can lead to oxidation of lipids and pigments.
The Chemistry Behind the Mixture
- Solubility – Water dissolves sugars, acids, and vitamins. Insoluble fibers remain in the pulp.
- pH – Orange juice’s pH is around 3.5–4.0, making it acidic enough to preserve it but also to give that sharp bite.
- Flavor Compounds – Limonene and other terpenes contribute to aroma. These are volatile and can evaporate or degrade over time.
Common Mistakes / What Most People Get Wrong
-
Assuming “natural” means “pure.”
Even 100 % natural juices are mixtures. “Pure” is a chemical term, not a marketing buzzword Most people skip this — try not to. And it works.. -
Thinking all sugars are the same.
Glucose, fructose, and sucrose have different metabolic effects. The ratio matters No workaround needed.. -
Believing pasteurization preserves all nutrients.
Heat can destroy vitamin C and some B vitamins. Cold‑processed “fresh” juices retain more nutrients but may have a shorter shelf life Which is the point.. -
Ignoring the role of pulp.
Fiber in pulp isn’t just filler; it influences texture, mouthfeel, and digestion. -
Assuming all orange juices are identical.
Different cultivars (Valencia, Navel, Seville) have distinct flavor profiles and nutrient balances Small thing, real impact..
Practical Tips / What Actually Works
-
Choose the Right Juice
If you’re after the most natural experience, look for 100 % juice with no added sugars or preservatives. Whole‑fruit juices (no pulp removed) often have higher fiber and more stable nutrient content That's the part that actually makes a difference.. -
Store Properly
Keep juice in a dark, cool place. Once opened, refrigerate and consume within 5–7 days to minimize oxidation and nutrient loss. -
Watch the Temperature
Hot water or microwaving will degrade vitamin C. If you need to warm a glass, do it gently and quickly That's the part that actually makes a difference.. -
Read the Label
Look for “no added sugars” and “no artificial flavors.” Even “natural” can mean added fruit extracts Still holds up.. -
Mix It Up
Combine orange juice with a splash of pineapple or carrot juice to balance acidity and add different vitamins And that's really what it comes down to..
FAQ
Q1: Can orange juice be considered a pure substance if you remove all pulp?
A1: No. Even clarified juice still contains a mix of sugars, acids, vitamins, and trace compounds. Removing pulp only reduces solids, not the chemical diversity Took long enough..
Q2: Does vitamin C make orange juice a pure substance because it’s a single vitamin?
A2: No. Vitamin C is just one component. The juice still has many other molecules, so it remains a mixture.
Q3: Are “100% natural” juices purer than those with added sugars?
A3: They’re closer to the original fruit’s composition, but they’re still mixtures. Added sugars simply increase the sugar component Worth knowing..
Q4: Is cold‑pressed juice purer than regular juice?
A4: Cold‑pressed preserves more heat‑labile nutrients, but the chemical makeup is still a complex mixture Surprisingly effective..
Q5: Can I create a pure orange juice at home?
A5: You could isolate specific compounds (e.g., crystallize sugar), but the resulting product would no longer be “orange juice” in the culinary sense—just a single ingredient.
Closing paragraph
So the next time you pour yourself a glass of orange juice, remember: it’s a vibrant, living cocktail of molecules, not a single, pure substance. Worth adding: that complexity isn’t a flaw—it’s what gives orange juice its character, nutrition, and the little burst of sunshine that wakes us up every morning. Cheers to the science behind the sip!
The official docs gloss over this. That's a mistake Simple as that..
How to Test the Purity of Your Juice at Home
If you’re a hands‑on type, there are a few simple, low‑tech experiments you can run in the kitchen to see just how “mixed” your orange juice really is.
| Test | What It Shows | How to Perform |
|---|---|---|
| Solubility Check | Separates water‑soluble from insoluble matter (pulp, fibers). Here's the thing — | Add a tablespoon of juice to a clear glass of cold water. Stir and let sit for a minute. 3–4. |
| Heat‑Induced Color Change | Shows the presence of heat‑sensitive pigments (flavonoids, carotenoids). | Warm a small sample in a microwave for 10 seconds. Think about it: 0 confirms the acidic mixture typical of orange juice. Now, the clear layer is the soluble fraction; any floating specks are insoluble solids. Even so, |
| Sugar Density Test | Estimates total dissolved solids (mainly sugars). | |
| pH Strip Test | Confirms the presence of acids (citric, ascorbic). So the reading in °Brix will be roughly 10–12 for most commercial juices, indicating a mixture of sugars, acids, and other solutes. Think about it: a reading around 3. | Use a kitchen refractometer or a simple hydrometer (the same used for home brewing). Also, |
These quick checks won’t give you a full compositional breakdown, but they illustrate that even the most “pure”‑looking juice contains multiple, interacting components.
The Bigger Picture: Why the Mixture Matters
Understanding orange juice as a mixture rather than a pure substance has practical implications beyond academic curiosity.
-
Nutrient Synergy – The bioavailability of vitamin C is enhanced when it co‑exists with flavonoids and other antioxidants present in the juice. Isolating a single nutrient often reduces its effectiveness.
-
Shelf‑Life Management – Because the mixture includes both stable (sugars) and unstable (vitamin C, enzymes) constituents, manufacturers must balance preservation methods (pasteurization, high‑pressure processing) to retain flavor while limiting nutrient loss That's the whole idea..
-
Allergy & Sensitivity Screening – Some people react to trace proteins or pollen residues that remain in the juice. Recognizing the juice as a mixture helps clinicians pinpoint the offending component Most people skip this — try not to..
-
Regulatory Labeling – Food‑law agencies define “100 % juice” based on the absence of added sugars or water, not on chemical purity. Consumers who equate “pure” with “single‑substance” may be misled; the legal definition still acknowledges the inherent mixture The details matter here. Worth knowing..
A Quick Recipe: Maximizing the Benefits of a Mixed Juice
Citrus‑Boost Smoothie (serves 2)
- 1 cup freshly squeezed 100 % orange juice (cold‑pressed if possible)
- ½ cup carrot juice (for beta‑carotene)
- ¼ cup pineapple juice (adds bromelain, a digestive enzyme)
- ½ banana (provides potassium and a creamy texture)
- 1 tsp chia seeds (adds soluble fiber)
- Ice cubes, optional
Method:
- Combine all liquids in a blender.
- Add banana and chia seeds.
- Blend on high for 30 seconds, then let the mixture sit 2 minutes so the chia seeds can hydrate.
- Blend again briefly, pour into glasses, and enjoy within an hour for optimal vitamin retention.
This drink showcases how the intentional blending of several “mixtures” creates a nutritionally richer, more balanced beverage than a single‑component juice could ever provide And it works..
Final Thoughts
The notion of a “pure” orange juice is a charming but misleading simplification. Day to day, in reality, every glass is a dynamic consortium of sugars, acids, vitamins, minerals, phytochemicals, and microscopic fibers—all interacting to give orange juice its distinctive taste, aroma, and health benefits. Recognizing it as a mixture empowers you to make smarter choices—selecting higher‑quality products, storing them correctly, and even customizing your own blends for maximum nutritional payoff Worth keeping that in mind. But it adds up..
So next time you reach for that bright amber liquid, pause and appreciate the chemistry at play. In practice, it’s not just a single substance; it’s a symphony of molecules, each contributing its own note to the chorus of flavor and wellness. And that, in a nutshell, is why the science of orange juice is as refreshing as the drink itself. Cheers!
The Role of Micro‑Components: Why “Minor” Matters
Even though they make up a fraction of the total mass, the micro‑components in orange juice often dictate its health profile and sensory character.
| Component | Approx. Practically speaking, 2–0. Concentration | Primary Function | Impact on Juice Quality |
|---|---|---|---|
| Flavonoids (hesperidin, narirutin) | 20–40 mg L⁻¹ | Antioxidant, anti‑inflammatory | Contribute to the characteristic bitter‑sweet aftertaste; protect cells from oxidative stress |
| Essential Oils (limonene, linalool) | 0.1–0.In practice, 5 % w/v | Viscosity, satiety | Gives a slightly “mouth‑coating” feel; slows glucose absorption |
| Bromelain (if blended with pineapple) | 0. 5 mg L⁻¹ | Aroma, antimicrobial | Provide the fresh citrus scent; inhibit spoilage microbes at low levels |
| Soluble Pectin | 0.02–0. |
Because these substances exist at such low concentrations, they are easily overlooked during quality checks, yet they are the very elements that differentiate a “premium” juice from a commodity product.
Processing Techniques that Honor the Mixture
When manufacturers treat orange juice as a mixture rather than a single chemical entity, they can adopt technologies that preserve the integrity of each component.
-
Cold‑Press Extraction
- Why it works: Minimal heat exposure prevents the degradation of heat‑labile vitamin C and volatile oils.
- Result: Higher retention of aroma compounds and a brighter, more natural flavor.
-
High‑Pressure Processing (HPP)
- Mechanism: Juice is subjected to pressures of 400–600 MPa for a few minutes, inactivating pathogens without raising temperature.
- Benefit: Enzymes such as bromelain remain active, and flavonoids retain their antioxidant capacity.
-
Pulsed Electric Fields (PEF)
- Principle: Short bursts of high voltage create pores in microbial cell membranes, killing them while leaving the juice matrix largely untouched.
- Outcome: Extended shelf life with minimal impact on color and nutrient profile.
-
Controlled Atmosphere Packaging
- Approach: Reducing oxygen levels (<0.5 %) and adding nitrogen or carbon dioxide slows oxidative reactions that would otherwise diminish vitamin C and flavonoids.
- Effect: The visual appeal (deep orange hue) and nutritional value stay stable for weeks.
These methods illustrate how viewing orange juice as a multicomponent system guides the selection of gentle, targeted interventions rather than blunt, heat‑heavy pasteurization that would erase many of the juice’s beneficial traits.
Consumer‑Level Strategies to Preserve the Mixture
Even after the juice leaves the factory, everyday choices can protect the delicate balance of its constituents:
| Action | Scientific Rationale | Practical Tip |
|---|---|---|
| Store in the Dark | Light catalyzes photo‑oxidation of vitamin C and carotenoids. Day to day, | Keep the bottle in a pantry or refrigerator door, not on the countertop. |
| Limit Headspace | Oxygen in the container accelerates oxidation of flavonoids and essential oils. | Transfer leftover juice to a smaller airtight container to reduce air exposure. |
| Consume Within 48 h of Opening | Enzymatic activity (e.g., polyphenol oxidase) continues after opening, slowly degrading pigments and antioxidants. Day to day, | Mark the opening date on the bottle and plan to finish it quickly. Practically speaking, |
| Avoid Re‑Freezing | Freeze‑thaw cycles cause ice crystal formation that ruptures cell structures, releasing enzymes that can degrade nutrients. | If you must freeze, do it once, and thaw in the refrigerator, not at room temperature. Here's the thing — |
| Add a Citrus‑Preserving Agent (optional) | A pinch of ascorbic acid (extra vitamin C) can act as an antioxidant buffer. | Mix ½ tsp of powdered vitamin C into a litre of juice before storing. |
By treating the juice as a living mixture, these habits help you reap the full spectrum of its health benefits Took long enough..
When “Mixture” Becomes a Marketing Advantage
Some brands have begun to highlight the multi‑component nature of their orange juice, positioning it as a “whole‑food beverage” rather than a simple sugary drink. This shift is reflected in label statements such as:
- “Cold‑pressed, nutrient‑preserving blend” – signals that the juice retains its native phytochemicals.
- “Contains natural soluble fiber and pectin” – appeals to consumers seeking satiety and digestive support.
- “Enriched with native citrus enzymes” – differentiates products that have avoided harsh heat treatment.
These claims are only credible when the company acknowledges the juice’s status as a mixture and backs it with transparent processing data. As consumers become more scientifically literate, the market will increasingly reward brands that respect the chemistry rather than oversimplify it Simple as that..
Closing the Loop: From Orchard to Glass
Understanding orange juice as a complex mixture reframes every stage of its journey:
- Harvest – Selecting ripe fruit maximizes the baseline levels of sugars, acids, and phytochemicals.
- Extraction – Cold‑press or gentle centrifugation preserves volatile oils and enzymes.
- Preservation – HPP, PEF, or controlled‑atmosphere packaging protect the mixture without sacrificing flavor.
- Distribution – Temperature‑controlled logistics keep oxidation at bay.
- Consumption – Proper storage and swift use maintain the balance of nutrients and sensory qualities.
Each link in this chain respects the fact that the final product is not a monolithic liquid but a symphony of interacting molecules. When we honor that reality, the resulting beverage is not only more delicious but also more nutritious.
Bottom Line
Orange juice may look like a simple, single‑ingredient drink, but it is, in fact, a deliberately orchestrated mixture of sugars, acids, vitamins, minerals, phytochemicals, and microscopic fibers. Recognizing this complexity is essential for producers aiming to preserve quality, for regulators crafting accurate labeling, and for consumers seeking the healthiest possible product.
By appreciating the chemistry behind every sip—acknowledging the role of minor constituents, choosing processing methods that protect the whole system, and handling the juice wisely at home—you can enjoy a glass that truly delivers the vibrant flavor and dependable health benefits that nature intended Nothing fancy..
So the next time you pour that amber liquid into a glass, remember: you’re not just drinking juice; you’re tasting a finely tuned mixture, a miniature laboratory of nutrition, and a testament to the power of preserving nature’s own formulation. Cheers to informed sipping!
The Business Angle: Why Transparency Pays
Brands that openly communicate the mixture nature of their orange juice can command higher price points and stronger brand loyalty. Transparent ingredient tables, processing timelines, and even QR‑codes linking to detailed sourcing stories give consumers confidence that they are not just buying a beverage but a curated experience. In markets where “clean label” and “all‑natural” are buzzwords, the ability to articulate the science behind the mix can be the single most differentiating factor.
Practical Take‑Aways for Consumers
| Question | What to Look For | Why It Matters |
|---|---|---|
| Is the juice “fresh” or “cold‑pressed”? | Look for “cold‑pressed” or “no‑heat” on the label. | Indicates minimal thermal disruption of enzymes and volatile aromas. |
| Does it list a “minimum 8 % juice” claim? | Check the percentage of pure juice vs. added water. | High dilution can mask the true complexity and dilute nutrients. Think about it: |
| **Are there added sugars or sweeteners? On the flip side, ** | Prefer products without added sugars or with natural sweeteners only. Because of that, | Keeps the sugar profile closer to the original fruit. |
| Is there a “no‑pasteurization” or “HPP” claim? | Look for high‑pressure processing or pulsed‑electric field. | Maintains more of the natural phytochemicals. |
| What’s the packaging? | Seek opaque, nitrogen‑filled cartons or recyclable glass. | Protects against light and oxygen, preserving the mixture’s integrity. |
The Future of Orange Juice: Beyond the Glass
Research is already pushing the envelope. Microencapsulation techniques can lock volatile oils in protective shells, releasing them only when the drink is consumed. Smart packaging that reacts to temperature changes can signal when the juice has begun to degrade, ensuring that the consumer always has a fresh‑like experience. And as genomics unlocks the genetic diversity of orange cultivars, we may see “designer” oranges engineered to maximize specific beneficial compounds—turning the mixture into a customizable nutrient profile No workaround needed..
Final Thoughts
Orange juice is more than a simple liquid; it is a dynamic, multi‑component system that reflects the orchard’s terroir, the farmer’s skill, the processor’s technology, and the consumer’s habits. Day to day, by acknowledging it as a mixture—rather than a singular substance—we reach a deeper appreciation for its flavor, its health benefits, and its cultural significance. Producers who treat the juice as a carefully balanced blend, regulators who set standards that reflect that reality, and consumers who understand the science behind each sip will all contribute to a beverage that truly lives up to its promise.
So next time you lift a glass, pause to consider the orchestra of sugars, acids, vitamins, and micro‑fibers that dance together. That said, that tiny splash of sunshine is not merely orange; it’s a testament to the complexity of nature and the art of preserving it. Enjoy responsibly, and let every sip remind you that the true value of orange juice lies in its beautifully layered mix. Cheers!
Practical Tips for the Savvy Consumer
| What to Look For | Why It Matters | How to Use It |
|---|---|---|
| Origin and Harvest Date | Freshness peaks within 48 h of picking. | |
| Certifications | Organic, Non‑GMO, Fair‑Trade, or Sustainable Agriculture labels. | |
| Add‑On Options | Many brands now add “fruit‑fiber” or “prebiotic blends. | Store unopened cartons in a cool dark place; once opened, keep refrigerated. ” |
| Packaging Transparency | Opaque cartons or glass protect against photo‑oxidation. On the flip side, | Ask for a “pulp‑to‑carton” timeline; the shorter, the better. |
Quick note before moving on Took long enough..
How to Incorporate Orange Juice Into a Balanced Diet
- Pair with Protein – A splash with Greek yogurt or a protein shake can help moderate the glycemic response.
- Use in Salads – Drizzle a small amount over green salads for a burst of citrusy sweetness without overpowering the greens.
- Create Low‑Sugar Mocktails – Mix with sparkling water, a dash of lime, and a touch of natural sweetener for a refreshing, alcohol‑free beverage.
Industry Trends That Shape Tomorrow’s Orange Juice
| Trend | Impact | What Consumers Should Expect |
|---|---|---|
| Cold‑Chain Optimization | Minimizes temperature fluctuations between farm and store. | Longer shelf‑life without preservatives. |
| Lab‑Grown Fiber | Extracting fiber from spent pulp to enrich the final product. | More dependable mouthfeel and higher fiber content. |
| AI‑Driven Harvest Timing | Predicts optimal pick times based on real‑time data. Worth adding: | Consistently higher quality fruit, reducing batch variability. |
| Circular Packaging | Reusable or biodegradable cartons. | Reduced environmental footprint and potential for “closed‑loop” recycling. |
The Bottom Line
Orange juice, when viewed through the lens of a complex mixture, offers a richer narrative than the simplistic “one‑ingredient drink” narrative. But its flavor profile, nutritional value, and sensory experience are all the result of a delicate balance between sugars, acids, volatile compounds, and micronutrients. Understanding these components empowers producers to refine processes, regulators to craft nuanced standards, and consumers to make informed choices.
So, whether you’re a casual sipper, a health‑conscious foodie, or a beverage scientist, remember that each glass is a microcosm of agricultural science, processing ingenuity, and sensory artistry. By treating orange juice as the detailed blend it truly is, we honor the fruit’s natural complexity and see to it that every sip remains a vibrant, healthful celebration of nature’s bounty. Cheers to the next glass—may it always be as fresh, nuanced, and delightfully orange as the first!
Emerging Research Frontiers
| Research Area | Key Question | Potential Impact |
|---|---|---|
| Microbiome‑Juice Interactions | How do the natural sugars and prebiotic fibers in orange juice influence gut flora? | Heightened consumer trust and rapid recall capability. |
| Nano‑Encapsulation of Bioactives | Can we protect vitamin C and carotenoids from oxidation without altering taste? | |
| Digital Traceability | What blockchain or RFID solutions can provide end‑to‑end transparency? | |
| Plant‑Based Alternatives | How do plant‑derived “orange‑flavored” juices compare nutritionally and environmentally? | Tailored juice formulations that support digestive health. Because of that, |
Market Outlook: 2026‑2030
- Premiumization – Consumers are willing to pay a premium for “farm‑to‑glass” labeling, organic certification, and low‑sugar formulations.
- Health‑Focused Segments – Functional juices fortified with probiotics, omega‑3s, or adaptogens are projected to grow 8‑10 % annually.
- Sustainability Mandates – Regulatory pressure in the EU and APAC to reduce packaging waste will spur innovations in biodegradable cartons and refill stations.
- Digital Engagement – Augmented‑reality labels and QR‑codes that reveal harvest data are becoming marketing differentiators.
A Call to Action for Stakeholders
- Farmers: Adopt precision irrigation and integrated pest management to maximize fruit quality while conserving resources.
- Processors: Invest in gentle, low‑heat pasteurization and real‑time quality monitoring to preserve the delicate volatile profile.
- Regulators: Update labeling standards to differentiate “natural” versus “enhanced” juices, ensuring consumers are not misled by “100 % juice” claims.
- Consumers: Read labels beyond the front‑side splash; consider fiber content, added sugars, and packaging sustainability.
Closing Thoughts
Orange juice is far more than a splash of citrus; it is a symphony of sugars, acids, esters, vitamins, and micronutrients that coalesce through meticulous agriculture, science‑backed processing, and thoughtful packaging. The industry’s future hinges on balancing flavor integrity with health, sustainability, and transparency. By embracing advanced analytics, circular supply chains, and consumer‑centric innovation, we can elevate the humble glass of orange juice into a benchmark for quality in the broader beverage landscape.
So the next time you pour a glass, remember the layers of science and stewardship that have brought that bright, tangy liquid to your table. Cheers to a future where every sip is not only delicious but also responsibly crafted and nutritionally enriched Easy to understand, harder to ignore..